"Do you mean to say," he continued, "that the Church is not the very ark
of salvation?"

"I used to think so," I replied, "and to say that 'there was no Church
without a Bishop, and no salvation out of the Church;' but now I am sure
that I was mistaken. The outward Church is a fold for protecting the
sheep; but the Church is not the Shepherd who seeks and finds the lost
sheep."

"Well," he said, "but think of all the good men you condemn if you take
that position so absolutely."

Seeing that I hesitated, he went on to say that he "knew many very good
men, in and out of the Church of England, who did not think much of
conversion, or believe in the necessity of it."

"I am very sorry for them," I replied; "but I cannot go back from the
position into which, I thank God, He has brought me. It is burned into
me that, except a man is converted, he will and must be lost for ever."
"Come, come, my young friend," he said, shifting his chair, and then
sitting down to another onslaught, "do you mean to say that a man will
go to hell if he is not converted, as you call it?"

"Yes, I do; and I am quite sure that if I had died in an unconverted
state I should have gone there; and this compels me to believe, also,
that what the Scripture says about it is true for every one."

"But what does the Scripture say?" he interposed. "It says that 'he that
believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed' (John
3:18); and in another place, 'tie that believeth not shall be damned'