and ignorant of war a good general? 'A general of old women he ought to
be.' But can any one form an estimate of any society, which is intended to
have a ruler, and which he only sees in an unruly and lawless state? 'No.'
There is a convivial form of society--is there not? 'Yes.' And has this
convivial society ever been rightly ordered? Of course you Spartans and
Cretans have never seen anything of the kind, but I have had wide
experience, and made many enquiries about such societies, and have hardly
ever found anything right or good in them. 'We acknowledge our want of
experience, and desire to learn of you.' Will you admit that in all
societies there must be a leader? 'Yes.' And in time of war he must be a
man of courage and absolutely devoid of fear, if this be possible?
'Certainly.' But we are talking now of a general who shall preside at
meetings of friends--and as these have a tendency to be uproarious, they
ought above all others to have a governor. 'Very good.' He should be a
sober man and a man of the world, who will keep, make, and increase the
peace of the society; a drunkard in charge of drunkards would be
singularly fortunate if he avoided doing a serious mischief. 'Indeed he
would.' Suppose a person to censure such meetings--he may be right, but
also he may have known them only in their disorderly state, under a
drunken master of the feast; and a drunken general or pilot cannot save
his army or his ships. 'True; but although I see the advantage of an army
having a good general, I do not equally see the good of a feast being well
managed.' If you mean to ask what good accrues to the state from the right
training of a single youth or a single chorus, I should reply, 'Not much';
but if you ask what is the good of education in general, I answer, that
education makes good men, and that good men act nobly and overcome their
enemies in battle. Victory is often suicidal to the victors, because it
creates forgetfulness of education, but education itself is never
suicidal. 'You imply that the regulation of convivial meetings is a part
of education; how will you prove this?' I will tell you. But first let me