And why should you say so? I asked.

I see, he replied, that there are some composers of speeches who do not
know how to use the speeches which they make, just as the makers of lyres
do not know how to use the lyres; and also some who are of themselves
unable to compose speeches, but are able to use the speeches which the
others make for them; and this proves that the art of making speeches is
not the same as the art of using them.

Yes, I said; and I take your words to be a sufficient proof that the art of
making speeches is not one which will make a man happy. And yet I did
think that the art which we have so long been seeking might be discovered
in that direction; for the composers of speeches, whenever I meet them,
always appear to me to be very extraordinary men, Cleinias, and their art
is lofty and divine, and no wonder. For their art is a part of the great
art of enchantment, and hardly, if at all, inferior to it: and whereas the
art of the enchanter is a mode of charming snakes and spiders and
scorpions, and other monsters and pests, this art of their's acts upon
dicasts and ecclesiasts and bodies of men, for the charming and pacifying
of them. Do you agree with me?

Yes, he said, I think that you are quite right.

Whither then shall we go, I said, and to what art shall we have recourse?

I do not see my way, he said.

But I think that I do, I replied.

And what is your notion? asked Cleinias.